Behind every successful life is the wary of 200 lifes who did not succeed. Its the game we humans play all our lives. ISB's making it to top 20 has risen many eye brows. The moment this news is broken to big league B school grads, they start giving points against it.
I will put forth some points. Its not just ISB MBAs, its a victory of your nation. Its a testimony of millions of life which bracket under umbrella of tag "Indians". Its the pride for a nation which was brutually killed under slavery and which fought for its freedom.
a) Above everything else, this is victory of my country. There are millions of indians who go abroad to study because their nation was not considered to be the best of the best in terms of providing education. Look at the smiles on faces of indians studying abroad. They now know that they are not a minority, soon they wil have the world coming to their door steps. I have friends doing MS in US of A who flashed ISB making it to top 20, so its high time we digest the BIG victory.
b) Say whatever you have to say for rankings. Hard facts- FT rankings are most reputed in world. We have all parameters open in air for people to judge. ISB has been attracting best of the bests for last 5 years. Its we the people. We might not be the core academicians, who work on quant day and night. ISBians are not selected on their knowledge of GK and how well they can vomit out the figures. ISBians are selected for logics, thought process and courage to fight failures in life. The selection process has academics as one part of it, rest of it is all about leadership, intelligence, smartness, and ability to confer and analyse situations. It takes courage to take a path less travelled and win on it. And if you think institutes manipulate to get a ranking, you may be right. But then it appears to be true for all 100, so battle ground is very much at level. I would say that if Stanford can do it and make itself brand Stanford, we should do it as well. Its high time we stop thiking in stereotypical way.
c) For critics, respect the fact that here is an indian institute which dared to go out to world and test its waters. A ranking of lower than 50 could have made it loose its glamour. It dared to face success and failures with equal grace and it marks the beginning of Indian b school battles in times to come. I am sure there will be a day when we have Indian b schools fighting on global charts while historical ivy leagues watch us play game. :)
Lets take pride in being Indian. I mark this blog to thank all the alums, staff, facility maintenance people and ISB aspirants. We have shown faith in our nation and its products. Its the faith that alums showed for last 5 years that has been given an endorsement.
Cheers to the ISB community!! The only response to the world is "Nothing succeeds like success." I will rest my case here. Flash that card which makes the world look upto you, forget about all other logics for behind every logic is a counter logic. Time to celebrate, we have created a history.
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17 comments:
Garima,
The question is not so much about a lack of pride in the institution or criticizing the rankings. ISB's standing as an institution was never under question.
However, one needs to examine the fact that ISB is an institution that is *only* 5 years old. IIMs on the contrary have been around for more than 30 years. Does it not strike you that this is odd?
-Do the IIMs participate in the ranking surveys? If they don't, it tells us why they dont figure in the rankings.
- Research, outgoing pay packages, % placements - surely none of these would be lacking in the IIMs, esp. for institutions that have been at the pinnacle of our management education.
I dont intend to dilute this news in any way but critical examination surely does serve to put all this into perspective.
I am an ISB alum from class of 2006. While apping, I wanted to go to an Indian B-School, as I always wanted to work in India. At the same time, I wanted to get taste of real education. I have been through one of the famed IITs and honestly, education wise, they suck. I didnt want a tag alone but some real education. ISB was my natural selection.
I think IIMs need to look at the ranking and then contemplate on the questions below
1. Are they in the right niche market? - ISB or no ISB, IIMs are not a standard Global B-School. In marketing terminology, they are niche players who have a near monopoly on one of the most lucrative resource pools in the world (India). What happens to monopolies? They become inefficient and are susceptible to a contender.
2. Do IIM have the right vision? - This is important. ISB had a vision before a brick was put in Gachibowli, Hyderabad. ISB wanted to be a global behemoth from starting. The vision hits you as soon as you meet anybody from the administration. I have been to IIM-A, I hav spoken to Bakul Dholakia (the then IIM-A dean). There was pride, but there was no dream.
3. Does IIM execute well? - It doesnt. The research standards are still low. I have seen the faculty, and I believe it has some distance to go before it competes with Wharton, Harvard etc. I have talked to a few profs, and mostly i came out with the impression that they are like any other school masters, who dont like it when people question their set ideas.
4. What is their USP? - Alumni, without doubt. Being number 1 choice for indian students, they have had rich pickings for too long. It will take time for other schools to catch up, but they are already closing the gap.
You can question the ratings. Thats fair and democratic. But then you will have to question all indian ratings as well where IIMs come out on tops. Come on, dont be Ricky ponting and gloss over the problem. Do a Kumble, introspect and come out a winner. We ISBians would love a good fight. India doesnt need squibblers. It needs fierce competitions between ISB and IIM on a global arena. Else ISB will start getting complascent, and I as an ISB alum dont want that to happen. Ever.
Hey Mrsgollum,
First of all, i am not defying logics. They are welcome. I will give some logical points too.
-Yes, IIM A has participated in ranking at somepoint of time and i think it was in 60s, not that i mean to say that it remains as it was. One of the reasons for them not particiapting may be their own systems to evaluate and intake. GMAT is not their entry criteria.
Anyway, i am not saying that its better or worse. It has a very strong alumni and lineage and we are not there to question its space.
-ISB started on very different grounds. It excels in Exec MBA and in that IIM is 2 yrs old. I am not a strong believer of number of years theory, because if that were the case, world would have been a very different place to live in.
-Another factor that ISB really focuses on is their COE based educational system, international exposure.
-Placemnts at ISB have attracted some very very senior profiles due to stress of experience, which has led our alumni impressions spread across sections of organizational positions.This is working well with IIMs exec MBA as well, so yes in may be few more years, if we dont get better, they might beat us.
-Placements and salaries are weighted figures for institutes when they are ranked. Its more of influence, power and capability. We have very top notch business figures in managing committee which makes its foundation as a b school strong.
- Exchange programmes with LBS and kinds.
- ISB students have won in prestigious b school competitions, not just in big Indian b schools, but in competition with Harvards.
- The way ISB treats and grooms students is professional and involves more autonomy.
I am not saying that trust in it blindly. There are strong logics. 5 years is not a constraint to reach where we have reached is what ISB has proved. 30 years of not daring is the only question i have.
Anshul,
Your points are well taken. As I've said before, the idea is not to jump up and celebrate at the first opportunity. A school that is good will attract good students and ISB is no exception.
Getting into a mould of constantly seeking external validation has a price to pay. You become dependent on it. What's more, it is ironic that we talk of being redeemed of all these years of slavery and still depend on British rankings!!
However, I do not think you are talking about the rankings themselves.
The ranking metrics are not clear in the sense that we do not know what a "global" school means for the rankers. The IIMs do have an international intake.
Secondly, the only ranking metrics I see are the ones I stated. None of these make the IIMs not legible to participate.
Vision is important as you point out. In so far as that, the IIMs also have exchange programs and visiting faculty. As far as research goes, there is no dearth. The IIMA faculty policy of research pubs is quite stringent, trust me.
In any case, the idea is not to crib. It is not to take any ranking at face value and critically examine it. It's quite easy to get caught up in the fervour these rankings have created. Kumble may be a great leader, but man to man Australia still beat us. No harm in accepting that.
Garima,
None of what I've said disputes facts about ISB which you have stated. It's a great institution, one I cannot wait to get into.
The core of the argument is why the IIMs are not in the list. And I don't think you have addressed that anywhere in your post.
Questions about what ranking metrics were used and why the IIMs don't figure in them leaves something to be desired. That's all.
At the end of the day, it's important we understand that we did not need these rankings to feel redeemed or validated. If we are good and I know we are, the world will know.
@ All
Firstly, IIMs could not participate in the rankings because they were not accredited to global body like Equis etc.
I dont know why people start comparing IIMs and ISB. This debate takes the centerstage and robs everybody of the fair debate. Everybody becomes biased. IIM guys will sing their tunes and ISB will become defensive. Lets not even debate that. Lets move out of our narrow and parochial thinking. We are now on a global stage, no more on a national stage. The world is big enough to accommodate both IIMs and ISB. I am not a great believer in rankings, you may call me an infidel but for me these rankings are only superficial. The ground realities remain the same.
ISB has risen like anything and i doubt whether any other B School can even replicate the success. The rankings do give us recognition and allow us to be treated at par with the grads from other IVY B Schools.
Lets not compete with IIMs, lets collaborate and raise the quality of management education in India. ISB has been instrumental in giving the IIMs a big jolt and made a point that the talent pool can not be taken for granted. India desires and deserves the best managers in the world. And we are on track to deliver our country the best in the world
Prashant,
That is precisely my point. The question did not intend to start a debate on IIM vs. ISB.
The question was - is it not odd that the IIMs don't even figure in the top 100. I mean, leave alone who would be ahead (IIM or ISB).
I wasn't even aware about the Equis thing. It settles the part about why the IIMs don't figure in the rankings.
And yes, I find it strange that we feel the need to be validated by these rankings. Almost as if we need the world to pat us on the back and tell us - you are good.
This shud make it clear where IIMs wud stand if they had participated
There were 4 main FT criteria:
Placements,
diversity of faculty
Research pubs
students and experiences
Lets take IIM ahmedabad on placements..It may do as favorably as compared to ISB.
Faculty diversity: It does bad as compared to ISB. ISB has faculty from all over the globe and some resident faculty are foreign passport holders of Indian origin.
Research pubs: I am a phd candidate in mgmt in US and IIM-A or any IIM faculty pubs are pathetic. Remember quantity is not quality. I can show you CV of 90% of IIM-A profs and show that do not even hav pub in middle tier journal..forget top tier..hence they will not get permanent aka tenure position in even 2nd or 3rd tier US school
students and experience: ISB wins hand down with % of female students, intl students and profile diversity..
I hope it makes it clear that even if IIM-A participates in FT rankings it will be somewhere from 80-100
Hey mrsgollum,
You said that you did not want to start a debate on IIM vs ISB. I stated positive of ISB and kept IIM at minimal. I mentioned that IIM have participated at some point of time and may be not having GMAT as base is a reason.
Now, why they dont participate, why they do is not something i can control, so would not want to comment.
Regarding patting on back and british rankings. It is recognition at international level, its irony that FT is british. :) And patting on back, i think i need it. I am going to ISB because i somewhere related to good things in life. Else my question to you is why MBA and why ISB? Degrees dont justify anything, right!
Neeraj,
I'm not sure your facts are right. Do you have any links/stats to show how many research pubs IIM-A profs have published in journals over the past few years? In any case, we don't need to compare two different organizations - one with a lot of visiting faculty members and 5 yrs old and another with a 30 yr legacy and a lot of permanent faculty. I'm not making a case for the IIMs - the question was how legible are the rankings. As for your 80-100 estimate for the IIMs, I have serious doubts on that.
Garima, I just dont think it's a great idea to use these rankings as yardsticks to justify our inclusion in an elite group or some such. It's a nice thing but in a ranking list where the IIMs don't even figure in the top 100, one never knows. And to say that the IIMs dont even belong in the top 100 is more than being impractical. That is all I've been saying for a while now.
Mrsgollum:
Regarding pubs u can do check for your self. Go to google scholar, enter the name of every IIM-A prof and see their pubs...note down the name of journals they have published.
Do the same for ISB profs..Also scan the CVs of profs..(u will be suprised a lot of IIMA dont even list their detailed CVs online coz they have no decent research to show.)
Once u have noted the names and their journal pubs, do a search on net for list of top tier journals by every business area such mgmt, OB, finance etc. FT, BW has a list..lot of US schools have created these lists.
Check the pub record of IIMA profs and ISB ones and see their record in last 3 years and life time...I predict that 88+ profs at IIMA might have max 1-3 pubs cumulative in past 3 yrs (which I also doubt)..while ISB has 5-10 pubs for faculty size of 19..
then u will realize how bad IIMA profs in "world class research".
IIMA has fooling desis abt research coz aam aadmi has no idea abt pub in top tier journals..
my indian prof in US says IIMs are teaching schools..in US among academia, teaching schools means schools where faculty does no research..
i hope u get the point..
Mrsgollum,
Are you not using IIM as a yardstick? Your doubt is not having IIM in list. Why is your doubt not going to Kellog, harvard and stanford being in the list.
I am restating what Prashant said to an extent, we as institutes compete in two different spaces as of today. In the space that we started with a vision, we have achieved something and in the competition of best of bests in world. Now if IIM has not competed, lets not deduce that if they had, they would have been better or worse or that standing above kellog's is not a valid position. Its like you top in IIT, while some students clear SAT and go to other schools. You cant say that you never topped in IIT because some students were not the part of class. You had a sample space which was good enough to credit your brain. The sample space for FT was good enough.
Neeraj,
Maybe I'll do the exact kind of research and let you know. I still have serious doubts about your prediction on where the IIMs will stand, simply because I have sent *at close hand* the kind of publication requirements placed on the faculty at IIM-A. In any case, until I have numbers (and maybe you should also have them), I'll reserve my judgement.
Garima,
Until Prashant talked about Equis, there was no explanation why the IIMs did not participate. And if they did, it is anybody's guess.
And let's not talk about vision, years of slavery, how we are a part of Ivy League, etc. These are at best emotional arguments for ego vindication. Rankings do not consider these as metrics. Rankings consider figures and in terms of figures, we can be reasonably confident the IIMs are not a 2nd tier organization. That they did not participate explains their absence, which was my question in the first place. I find it tough to explain that I'm not criticizing or undermining ISB's ranking in any way. Critical examination of any ranking is important before the kind of self-congratulatory tone that characterizes our psyche. And I'm sure I've done no wrong in doing that.
Neeraj,
I guess u are going overboard in proving that IIMs dont deserve a place in the rankings. Its all about focus. It is universal knowledge that ISB was targeting the FT rankings right from start. Hence they channelized their energies towards attaining that. Perhaps that was the reason they have fulfilled all the criteria that determine the rankings. Lets not indulge in any mudslinging. you can not lampoon an institution that has withstood the test of times. Like i said, lets not compete, lets cooperate and collaborate. Probably they do not have uptodate curriculum. You cant blame a government institution for that. But IIMs still are the greatest brand from India. That does not make ISB any smaller...Let collectively take on the world and win on merit.
Guys,
Honestly this debate is best settled with time. We just need to wait for next 5-10 years to say which model has been more successful. Any amount of debate is not going to provide any conclusions.
Whether this ranking improves ISBs standing in India is debatable. Probably the non-inclusion of IIMs make it suspect in the eyes of Indian prospects. But if I am an international student, thinking about a global MBA, this rating is going to pull me to Hyderabad. Also, more importantly, its going to pull in better faculty. So, I think we will see something of a positive spiral springing from this. So, just from a Marketing angle, ISB has pulled out a rabbit from the hat.
Regarding the debate on IIMs and the ranking - FT is one of the most reputed B-School ranking which people notice. IIMs do need to think whether it matters to them if they need to appear in this ranking sheet. If it doesnt, then they should let people know to end any further debate. if it does, then they should start working on the ranking parameters.
I am one of the view that there is really nothing common between IIMs and ISB. Hence I never fully understand the passion that this debate creates. But if you had to compare, here is my 2 paisa -
IIMs are number 1 Indian school in India, ISB is number 1 International school in India.
ISB is yet to catch up with IIMs in terms of Alumni and placement, but is fast approaching. IIMs are getting their act together but would have to move faster.
Got lots of work to do, so wont be commenting further. You guys have fun.
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